Correction: When I made my prior post I was in a rush since I had to soon start getting ready to go to work. Where I said "As a result, just because a book in the Bible in the Bible is wisdom literature, that mean it is atheistic" I meant instead to say "As a result, just because a book in the Bible is wisdom literature, that does not mean it is atheistic."
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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60
What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?
by Sea Breeze inwe all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.
my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.
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What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?
by Sea Breeze inwe all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.
my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze though you are dismissing Ecclesiastes as "is part of the "WIS[D]OM LITERATURE" in the OT" and "is written from a carnal point of view, same as an atheist" the book actually doesn't teach atheism (as much as I might wish it did). For, example verses 7 and 9 from the same chapter 9 state belief in God. That chapter is actually expressing a Jewish religious view in Judah that there is no afterlife at all. Perhaps it was the same view as the Sadducees whom as you know denied the resurrection of the dead and the existence of spirits and angels. As you know, the Sadducees ran the Jewish temple of YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah in the second temple period and worshipped Yahweh, offering sacrifices to Yahweh. A scholarly book I quoted from months ago says that at a certain time in the history of biblical Judaism there were religious teachers and worshipers of Yahweh who taught the people that there was no afterlife at all. The book says those teachers were trying to refute the idea of other religious Jews. peacefulpete is correct in saying that there was a diversity of Jewish religious views about an afterlife, but his post on page two of this topic thread left out the view that some Jewish worshipers of Yahweh believed there was no afterlife at all.
The book of Proverbs is also wisdom literature, yet it also states beliefs in God, it even says that wisdom comes from God. As a result, just because a book in the Bible in the Bible is wisdom literature, that mean it is atheistic. Atheistic books didn't make it in the Hebrew Scriptures, scriptures which the NT says are inspired of God.
Fisherman, though many Christians teach that the book of Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon, a number of modern critical scholars say it was not written by him, despite the extant copies of the book saying it was written by him.
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Wise counsel for JW's in latest WT
by BoogerMan injune 2023 study watchtower p. 13, par 15 - “we will not be fooled if we “make sure of or, “test” all things.”...we need to test what we hear or what we read to determine whether it is genuine.....instead of naively accepting what others the org say, we use our thinking ability to compare what we read or what we hear with what the bible and jehovah’s organization say.”.
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Disillusioned JW
We should also put the Bible and the WT literature to the test by comparing what they say with what modern science says (including what modern science says about evolution).
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What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?
by Sea Breeze inwe all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.
my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze said ".... a man who walked out of a tomb as he claimed he would ...." (in reference to Jesus), but there is no report in the Bible at all of a human (or even angel) seeing Jesus walk out of his tomb! There is thus no report in the Bible at all of anyone witnessing the resurrection of Jesus (though there is a report which makes the claim of people seeing Lazarus walk of his tomb). If anyone can prove otherwise please state the verse or verses.
Furthermore, in a number of reports in the Gospel books of Bible of people allegedly seeing Jesus after his alleged resurrection, some of them say some of the disciples supposedly seeing such did not believe (presumably didn't believe that they actually saw Jesus alive after his death). Some of the reports in the Bible also say that the disciples did not recognize him at first despite having a personal two way conversation with him. The long addition to the Gospel of Mark (which I think Sea Breeze believes is authentic scripture) says that Jesus appeared in a different form after his supposed resurrection. These accounts thus leave room for the possibility that in the accounts of a purported post-resurrection Jesus, the live man allegedly seen by the disciples was not actually Jesus, but rather a a man whom the disciples mistook for Jesus.
[In contrast the Gnostic Gospel of Peter (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter ) has an account alleging that Jesus was seen walking out of the tomb, and that his cross was seen both following (walking?) out of the tomb and talking! I don't think Sea Breeze believes in that account as being accurate, but if he does believe that Gnostic account then I invite him to tell us such.]
Another possible interpretation of people thinking they saw the Jesus alive after his death, is that they merely had hallucinatory visions of seeing him as such. In the case of the Apostle Paul, he even claims to have seen a vision of the resurrected Jesus Christ, though according to what he wrote he didn't think the vision was a hallucination.
Regarding Bible verses about the dead being conscious or unconscious, don't forget Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (NKJV) which says the following.
"5 For the living know that they will die;
Those two biblical verses are 100% in harmony with atheistic scientific naturalism. Those two biblical verses are completely true. Verse 6 even entails the idea that there never will be (and never has been) a resurrection of the dead to life "under the sun" (on Earth).
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun."Ecclesiastes 9:10 (NKJV) says the following. "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." That verse (with the word "grave" used in the NKJV translation instead of "sheol") is also completely true and 100% in harmony with atheistic scientific naturalism.
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Pawn to Queen 2034 anyone?
by Fisherman innot a hint of a new date for the great tribulation.
the attitude of jw is that they expect it immediately although the inter-lapping anointed allows for any additional extended time.
given the time of the end, the end comes after the good news is preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations with the internet and 108 years and tons of publications even in finnish.
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Disillusioned JW
Regarding saying "Very, VERY soon" there is scriptural support for saying such and for thinking such (even if from a rational and critical thinking perspective such is inadequate), for Hebrews 10:37 (1984 NWT) says the following. 'For yet "a very little while," and "he who is coming will arrive and will not delay." If to a Christian it seems that God is delaying, then that might be sign (or a warning sign) that that Christian is loosing faith in Yahweh/Jehovah God. According to the Bible it is a grave matter to think that God is delaying, for note the very next verse says the following (in the 1984 NWT). ' "But my righteous one will live by reason of faith," and, "if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him." See also 2 Peter 3:9 (1984 NWT) which says the following. "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness ....."
From an atheistic perspective, if a person thinks God appears to be delaying, maybe there is hope for you yet.
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Pawn to Queen 2034 anyone?
by Fisherman innot a hint of a new date for the great tribulation.
the attitude of jw is that they expect it immediately although the inter-lapping anointed allows for any additional extended time.
given the time of the end, the end comes after the good news is preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations with the internet and 108 years and tons of publications even in finnish.
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Disillusioned JW
About an hour (or so) after making my previous post of this topic thread, I regretted making that post. That is because about an hour after making the post I realized that my words sounded harsh, and I realized I should have kept the ideas expressed in the first paragraph of that post to myself. I also realized that I might have misinterpreted the implication of the post I had responded to, and thus the wording of my reply might not have been relevant to what I was replying to. But, by then it was too late to modify the post. I thus apologize to Fisherman for making my prior post.
However I have no regrets for stating in various posts I am an atheist and for making comments (in various posts) which promote atheistic scientific naturalism as truth. I will continue to promote atheism, naturalism, and irreligion and to point out to readers and listeners various problems of the Bible and of Christianity. For me, doing such is a very important cause; it is more important to me than promoting the JW religion was to me when I was a very active believing JW.
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Pawn to Queen 2034 anyone?
by Fisherman innot a hint of a new date for the great tribulation.
the attitude of jw is that they expect it immediately although the inter-lapping anointed allows for any additional extended time.
given the time of the end, the end comes after the good news is preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations with the internet and 108 years and tons of publications even in finnish.
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Disillusioned JW
Fisherman, I am pointing out that your comments give me the impression that you are not entirely whom you claim to be. You claim to be a JW who believes in what the WT teaches yet you also make multiple statements in conflict with WT teachings, or that imply (or hint) that the WT is wrong in some specific teachings. In one of your comments (on a different topic thread), when writing to a Jew, you even said you are a Jew (for you made the statement of "I and other Jews ..."). You seem to be playing games with us and thus I don't take your comments very seriously anymore.
Regarding myself the following is the case. More than 12 years ago I ceased considering myself a JW, except that I acknowledge that according to the WT/JW definition of a JW I am an inactive JW. I would have officially left the religion more than 12 years ago, if it were not because I have a JW mother and a JW sister (and that 12 years ago also had two JW grandparents), and that I wish to not be shunned by them. But I have told my mother and sister (and had told the two JW grandparents I had years ago) that I am now an atheist and that I believe nothing supernatural at all exists. But I am also someone who thinks that the WT is correct in some things they say about the Bible (and on other topics). I notice that the Bible contains some correct historical information and some good ethics, despite also having much false information and some bad ethics.
After I stopped considering myself a JW I would have changed my handle of "Disillusioned JW" to no longer refer to myself as a JW, if such was possible to do.
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Pawn to Queen 2034 anyone?
by Fisherman innot a hint of a new date for the great tribulation.
the attitude of jw is that they expect it immediately although the inter-lapping anointed allows for any additional extended time.
given the time of the end, the end comes after the good news is preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations with the internet and 108 years and tons of publications even in finnish.
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Disillusioned JW
Boogerman, well Christianity certainly didn't get preached in the Americas (western hemisphere), or even the southern half of Africa and most of eastern Asia by 70 CE. However, the book of Mormon says Jesus made appearances in the Americas (the continents of North America and South America) and that he taught the people there.
The Bible writers didn't even known there were people on the western hemisphere of Earth. They didn't even know there was a western hemisphere of Earth. That is because they were flat earthers, who thought the Earth was like a circular plate instead of a sphere (like a ball), with a dome (like an inverted bowl) on the top side of the disc.
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Removing verses form the NWT
by Phizzy inthe jw org has removed certain verses from their nwt version, claiming usually that what is removed is not found in the oldest mss, that claim is fair enough, until you ask a simple question, this :.
" if you are going to remove interpolations from the bible, where do you stop?"..
the org.
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Disillusioned JW
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Peter says the following.
'The text identifies the author as "Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ" and the epistle is traditionally attributed to Peter the Apostle, but most scholars consider the epistle pseudepigraphical (i.e., authored by one or more of Peter's followers in Ancient Rome, using Peter as a pseudonym)[3][4][5][6][7] 'Imagine if the WT religion were to become so theologically bold that it excluded much of the NT from the NWT (or had much of it only in tiny print), and called the excluded books forgeries and books of apostate Christianity. It might even result in making the religion much more appealing to young people. Such especially might would be the case if the WT also greatly reduced their authoritarian ways (and allowed JWs to openly disagree with WT teachings, but outside of worship services), became a somewhat humanistic type of Christianity, stopped requiring field service, stopped speaking negatively of college education, stopped saying that blood transfusions are bad, and said that biological evolution (macroevolution) might be reality.
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Removing verses form the NWT
by Phizzy inthe jw org has removed certain verses from their nwt version, claiming usually that what is removed is not found in the oldest mss, that claim is fair enough, until you ask a simple question, this :.
" if you are going to remove interpolations from the bible, where do you stop?"..
the org.
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Disillusioned JW
Phizzy raised a good question in the opening post. But I am looking at the significance of the question from the opposite perspective of what I think Phizzy is looking at it. You see, to me the Bible (even the NT) has too many books in it. To me the Bible has books in it which never should have been included in it.
Several months ago I started thinking that the WT should adopt their own canon of the NT, one which excludes the books which NT critical scholars say are written under a false name (and that future WT revisions of the NWT should reflect that revised canon). For example, the WT should exclude the Letter of 2 Peter and the Letter to Titus.
In addition, the WT should exclude the letter of Jude and the book of Revelation and the book of Esther.
But the WT would never want to do any of those actions. But hypothetically, if the WT were to do such it would change the religion dramatically and it would be another way they could distinguish their religion from other religions of Christianity (religions which the WT claims are apostate). Making such changes would enable them to make their religion much more liberal, much less fundamentalist minded, and much less focused on the idea of Armageddon and of the idea of a God who will slaughter billions of people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged_(book) says the following.
"New Testament books identified as forgeries by Ehrman
- First Epistle of Peter
- Second Epistle of Peter
- Second Epistle to the Thessalonians
- First Epistle to Timothy
- Second Epistle to Timothy
- Epistle to Titus
- Epistle to the Ephesians
- Epistle to the Colossians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_of_Peter says the following.
'Although the text identifies Peter as its author, the language, dating, style, and structure of this letter have led most scholars to conclude that it is pseudonymous.[3][4][5] Many scholars argue that Peter was not the author of the letter because its writer appears to have had a formal education in rhetoric and philosophy, and an advanced knowledge of the Greek language,[6] none of which would be usual for a Galilean fisherman.
New Testament scholar Graham Stanton rejects Petrine authorship because 1 Peter was most likely written during the reign of Domitian in AD 81, which is when he believes widespread Christian persecution began, which is long after the death of Peter.[7][page needed] More recent scholars such as Travis Williams say that the persecution described does not appear to be describing official Roman persecutions after Peter's death, thus not directly ruling out an early date for the composition of the epistle.[8]
Another dating issue is the reference to "Babylon" in chapter 5 verse 13, generally agreed to be a claim the letter was written from Rome. It is believed that the identification of Rome with Babylon, the ancient enemy of the Jews, only came after the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.[9] Other scholars doubt Petrine authorship because they are convinced that 1 Peter is dependent on the Pauline epistles and thus was written after Paul the Apostle's ministry because it shares many of the same motifs espoused in Ephesians, Colossians, and the Pastoral Epistles.[10]
'